Tuesday, May 19, 2009

Discipline

Our approach on disciplining our children is this : we do use time outs and spankings with Kyleigh, in addition to positive discipline. Proverbs 13:24 - "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly." Kyleigh is a VERY strong-willed child. If we didn't use spankings or time-outs with her, she would never listen, never learn respect, never learn obedience. I'm rather inclined to think that Maezie won't be that hard. She's much more sensitive. While she certainly has her own ideas about things, she's much more easygoing and not nearly so strong-willed. Right now, all I have to do is just raise my voice sharply and say "No!" when she's touching something she shouldn't, and her little bottom lip comes out and she begins to cry. Even at this age, I could say "No!" to Kyleigh until I was blue in the face, and nothing would have happened. (Hah! And now, she just looks at me blankly and thoroughly ignores me unless she knows that something is coming to back up that "no!" - she's a smart cookie!!!)

I know that I personally have babysat for families that have children that have obviously not been disciplined. Both my husband and I think it's incredibly important to discipline our kids - BECAUSE we love them. The families I saw with disobedient kids were pretty disfunctional. The kids don't have respect for ANYONE. I don't think it's EVER ok for a child to hit their parent, or vice versa for that matter. (Unless for spankings of course - but spankings should eb done when the anger has cooled and should be done in a consistent manner.) The disobedient and thoroughly disresepctful children then turn into disrespectful teenagers, who think they are entitled to whatever they want and can treat anyone in whatever way they want. It might be easier as a parent to let your young child run all over you instead of putting your foot down and disciplining - but it makes the most difference to the CHILD later on in life.

My deep thought for the day : I don't think you can ever truly learn humility without being disciplined and learning to respect others first.

Kyleigh lately is getting more angry and not knowing how to act out. I really feel like we have hit the emotional part of the terrible 2's finally. I'm going to start working harder with her on calming down and "talking nice" and such. She's been flat-out refusing to do what we're telling her to lately. She's nearly 3. She's old enough to know right from wrong, and I'm noticing that we aren't discipling her ENOUGH as her tantrums are increasing both in frequency and size. We were just letting things go, ignoring bad behavior because we were still in that "she's really too young to know she's doing something wrong" phase - but that was just OUR minds, not HERS! Haha! She's incredibly intelligent and she's learned how to push our buttons, and that when one parent is upset with her or she's in trouble, she can run to the other parent for comfort. We've been realizing this lately, and are coming together more on what's going on. For instance, tonight Kyleigh climbed on our dresser in our bedroom and was playing with Matt's guitar. He asked her to get down. She just looked at him. Then he crossed the room so that he could physically MAKE her get down, and just before he got there, she jumped down and ran in here to me crying. "I need a hug Mommy!" I refused to give her one because she was in trouble. Matt and I have decided that when she's in trouble with one parent, that parent needs to be the one to discipline, hug, and explain what's going on and why we have rules and what rules have been broken. No getting comfort from the other parent. That undermines one parent's authority and sets the stage for the "good parent/bad parent" fiasco.

Here are some things I've seen kids around me (either than I've babysat or just watched grow up) do that I will NEVER let my children do. (And if my kids DO attempt these behaviors, you'd better believe they're going to be in BIG trouble!)
1. Blatanly roll their eyes at another adult (besides parents - HAH! I expect them to do that to me! I know I did it a lot to my parents - sorry Mom and Dad!)
2. Hit/kick a parent/caregiver
3. Say something incredibly rude as a guest in someone's home : "You have a really ugly house" or something like that. (Obviously, you can't expect verbal perfection out of super young kiddos, but out of older ones, I mean!)
4. Being rude and disrespectful to adults in general
5. Be defiantly disobedient, especially to adults besides parents

For instance, the 5 year old I babysat once. Me : "Cooper, please eat just ONE bite of your corn, and then you can get down from the table." Cooper : "No. I don't want to eat it, so I don't have to." Me : "I'm sorry Cooper, those are my rules. You need to eat just ONE bite of a vegetable for dinner. All you have to do is try it once. If you don't like it, you don't have to eat any more." Cooper : "NO!" And then he loaded his spoon with corn, and LAUNCHED the whole thing at my face. Then he threw himself on the floor in a tantrum, and when I went to pick him up from his tantrum, he punched me in the face repeatedly and kicked me in the stomach until I literally faced him away from me so he couldn't reach me anymore. I was SHOCKED!!! So I put him in time-out and called the parents. The Dad told me to just let him out of time-out, that his behavior is a reaction to all the stress he's been under lately, and not to punish him. .... Ummm, EXCUSE ME??!?! Yeah, those parents paid me $100 for 7.5 hours of babysitting, and I was never called back. Not that I'd ever willingly GO back either. I guarantee you though, without radical intervention, that boy is going to be a teenager that gets whatever he wants, when he wants it. The type that has no respect for teachers, policemen, or authority figures in general. The type that feels he can force teenage girls to give him what he wants, because he has always been his own authority. It might seem harmless enough at age 5. But what about when he's 15 and weighs 150 pounds and can literally break his mother's bones when he feels like punching her in the face?? Not so harmless then.

And just for your knowledge - when I was called to babysit Cooper and his sister at that time, their mom was in the hospital having baby #3. I was the only person crazy enough to accept their offer. I had never sat for them before, and I was the only person left on our church roster babysitter list. I don't know about any of YOU - but I would NEVER leave Ky and Maezie with a complete stranger (even one who went to my church and came highly recommended, as I was!) while I was in the hospital having another baby. ... So yeah, that just gives you an idea of how bad these kids were. His sister was only about 18 months old, not big enough to be really bad yet. But seriously folks, these kids are headed for destruction. Headed for hell, I honestly feel like. I mean - if you don't feel like you have to respect or honor your parents or any other authority figures in your life, why would you feel the need to respect or honor God?? There is a REASON that the Good Lord gave us the commandment to honor our father and mother - and it is because it starts us in a lifestyle that trains us to not only love and respect others, but also to love and honor our LORD!!!

I cringe when I see a 7 year old tell her mother what to do, or call her mother a name to her face or say something so rude to her mother that MY jaw drops - and then the child gets away with it. It makes me want to cry. As Americans in general, this whole "positive reinforcement only" thing we're into right now is going to leave our nation in a BAD place when this generation of kids grows up. Whew! Positive reinforcement is a GOOD thing, and has its place, for sure! I know that some kids respond very well to PR, and don't need as much of the corrective discipline. But not every kid is the same. And I'd much rather spank my kid now when she runs out into the street so that she learns her lesson and doesn't do it again - than have her get run over by a car while running out into the street again tomorrow.

We are not training our children to be children, we are training them to be ADULTS. You cannot be successful, repsonsible, well-adjusted, a good friend or well-loved as an adult unless you learn discpline, respect, and humility AS A CHILD.

10 comments:

Niecey said...

Laura, I love you deeply, and I also totally disagree with you. :)

Have you read any of the articles in GCM?
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/topics/gentlediscipline.php
Especially the one about the rod and the one about Grace Based Discipline. It'll give you a good idea of where the other side is coming from.

I also believe it is important to discipline my kids - but I don't spank them. I don't believe discipline has to be all about punishment.

What evidence have you seen, that the tantrumming 2 year old who isn't spanked will grow up to be the teenager who is headed to hell and disrespecting everyone in his life? In my experience, such teenagers are usually ones who grew up without much parental influence or involvement at all. And very often the little involvement they had *did* include spanking, or even physical abuse.

In my experience, the kids who are raised in punitive homes go one of two ways as teenagers/adults. They either have low self esteem, and have a hard time believe God loves them or forgives them and often fall away from God. Or they become bullies. Like they are trying to steal the power back that was taken away from them.

It's the kids who are raised in a loving home, with a lot of parental involvement, talking, playing, teaching, singing, touching, spending time, reading the bible, getting on the flour and relating to their kids, being open and most importantly, MODELING positive behavior (FAR more effective than spanking any day, in my opinion) who grow to be self confident, whole beings who accept God's love and grace and are good at forgiving others.

Think about what the 5 year old was going through. His parents probably didn't leave him a lot. He was with a stranger. He felt insecure and scared and out of sorts. Every human wants to feel a certain sense of control over one's self. He didn't, which can make a person feel vulnerable and feel a strong need to take some control back. When I feel like that in life I do something a little rebellious like eat a piece of chocolate or skip the laundry for the evening and it helps me not feel like a slave to the system. It's normal and healthy.

In addition to that, his mom was in the hospital - he didn't know if she'd be ok. *And* she was having a baby and he didn't know how his life was going to change. Would they still love him? Would they ever have time for him? Would they still laugh at him and think he's cute? Would he love the new baby? It's a huge transition in life. Huge. And one which is important it goes smoothly. Because this will shape your relationship with your sibling for years and decades to come, and it will help shape how you feel about change in future.

And in that light - it's just corn. Does it *really* matter if he eats it? The corn will be in the sewers in a few days any way. His new sibling will be with him forever. He just wanted to feel a little bit of control by not eating the corn.

And then when you enter a battle like that, he suddenly felt anger being presented against him at a time when he needed comforted and reassured and he desperately needed some familiarity. I bet finding something he was used to, a favorite book, a game he usually played every night or a song his mom would sing, and using that whilst letting him pass on the corn, and I bet the hitting/punching thing never would have come up.


Yes, we are trying to raise them in such a way that they will be whole as adults. But for now, they *are* still kids. I believe the most important things we can do is to model good behavior, have an open path way for two sided honest conversation, and give them a secure environment to learn about God.

If they feel wrath from their parents when they mess up, as adults won't they think when they mess up that they'll suffer God's wrath? I have seen people walk away from Jesus for those reasons. Their parents didn't demonstrate grace and they couldn't grasp the concept. We teach about this New Covenant system of grace and mercy, yet we continue to raise our kids under a system of performance based law. It's inconsistent.


And I completely agree, that permissive parenting is at *least* as harmful. Kids desperately need boundaries and they need to feel someone is over them, protecting them and guiding them, and laying down the boundaries. We'd feel so completely lost if we found out God was dead or had resigned. There'd be no point in anything anymore. Same for the kids with us, they need us to have that role in their lives. It doesn't mean spanking and being punitive though. That's not God's role with me. I am a big believer in gentle discipline. not non-discipline. God disciplines me, gently. He forgives me, and allows me natural consequences. And I completely believe in doing the same with my children.

If we *are* going to take the line where we believe we've to raise them as adults, with the expectation that they should behave as adults, then should we not also show then the same respect we show an adult? What do we do to an adult who is too noisy in the library? We either let it go, or we ask them to be quiet, and if they don't then we remove them from the premises. If we bent them over our knee and gave them a spankin', we'd be going to jail. Because it's seen as going against their human rights. So then children are obviously not equal to adults, because it we spank a child it's ok, but not so with an adult. So if children are inequal, then why do we still insist they behave like adults?

I believe it's hard to learn to respect people without first being shown respect. If you're made to feel like you're always less than, and always need to respect others or else you'll be spanked, you'll most likely grow up believing that everyone else in the world deserves respect (other than children), but that you don't, and in fact, you deserve to physically hurt, or to be punished. Because you're different, and unequal. I don't want my kids feeling that way as grown ups.

That's my 2 pennies. In fact I have loads more pennies about this issue, but I'll stick with 2 for now. I do recommend you read these articles, if you haven't already. And keep in mind, we're not talking about "easy" parenting where you do nothing to shape your kids behavior! I in fact feel that spanking is the easy way out, because you sit and wait til your kid misbehaves, then you spank them and their spirits are crushed a little, so they don't misbehave again quite as quickly, but meanwhile you wait until they do. It's about trying to catch them at it. Grace based parenting is about preventative parenting, stopping the tantrum before it starts by making sure the child's needs are met. A tantrum is rarely ever about what they say it's about (I want that toy! I don't want a bath! etc), but usually about an actual need which is left unmet. Like for a sense of security. Or they are just hungry and tired. Or confused or scared. Grace based/preventative parenting is about looking out for these needs and making sure they are met, and stopping the problem before it starts. They are not able to meet these needs as children, that's our job. As they grow they will gradually start taking over our job of meeting their needs.

Ok sorry I went on to 3 pennies. I must stop now hehe. Gotta feed my kids anyway, before *I* have a tantrum on my hands hehe.

Love
Niecey

Niecey said...

Ok just one more thing....even the most "well behaved" adults, who have been well raised and loved, still act out when they have these unmet needs.

Lets say, a successful businessman, a good husband and father, He loves God, and does well in life.
One night his baby is up crying all night, and because he's a good man, he helped his wife out, and he consequently got little sleep. So he slept past his alarm in the morning and had to leave work without breakfast. He then has a very busy day at the office, with clients yelling at him and had to eat a snickers for lunch, on the go. He's tired, been yelled at, and his nutrition needs haven't been met. Then he comes home to find out his in-laws, who he is polite to but they don't always see eye to eye, are in his house, and will be staying with him for the next month. He had no say in this, they just turned up. They are messing with his things, changing his rules. His father in law is walking all over the fancy carpet with his shoes on and asking people to keep the volume down on the tv. Businessman is not going to be able to sleep in his own bed anymore, but rather on the couch, so the inlaws can have his bed. He had wanted so badly to just come home, kick off his shoes and relax a bit, but now he won't be relaxing for a while, and he feels like he has no control. When he retreats to his laptop in the corner of the living room (despite his mother in law nagging him to be more sociable), oh and his father in law is sitting in his favorite chair, and then finds out the internet is broken; is anyone surprised when he phones the cable company and raises his voice? It's not right that he does it. He has a bit of a temper tantrum on the phone. He yells at them and tells them they need to come fix this problem.

What should the wife do? Yell at her husband for freaking out on the phone and not being a good Christian? Should she put him in a time out or physically hurt him? Of course not.

He needs a hug, a hot, nutritious meal, to be shown a little human decency. He needs a little personal space and something that belongs to him. He needs a good nights sleep or a nap.


Sometimes when our kids "roll their eyes at an adult" or throw a tantrum about something, we need to ask ourselves; does she need a hug? Does she need to be shown a little human decency? Does she need a nutritious meal or some personal space? Does she need a nap or a good night's sleep? They're no different from the rest of us. Except that their bars run empty much faster than ours do. That's why they're kids and not grown ups. That's why God gave them parents to look after their needs. They get hungry quicker, tired sooner, more easily frightened or insecure. Spanking doesn't resolve any of those issues, by the way. But it does make them too frightened to voice their needs any more. So they learn to shut up about it. And they carry that lesson through to adulthood.


By the way, I don't believe there is only one definitive way to successfully raise kids. These are the choices I have made and the reasons I have made them. I believe there are many ways to be a great mom. And I also believe you are an incredibly great mom!
I'm passionate about this issue, but please don't take it as a personal attack. You're awesome and we're all just trying to do what we believe is best for our own kids.

Jenn said...

Well it will do no good for me to argue with anyone on this, as it is our right as parents to raise our children as we see fit. I do however take offense that children who are raised in punitive homes go one of two ways only. I was raised in such a home and did not have low self esteem or become a bully. You can't be that black and white on that issue. My parents were quite stern with me (and I'm an only child) and I remember getting a good pop on the butt every now and again. Mostly my mother used her voice to deter me. But I did not fear them, I did not have tantrums. I am self confident, I have been successful in my life and never doubted God because my parents disciplined me. I am pretty offended that someone would think that spanking leads to only 2 possible outcomes.

Kim, Aaron, Jake, Jack and Baby #3 said...

W O W . . .

I could not possibly disagree more with "Niecey." I am actually appauled with much of what she said.

Also, I am right there with Jenn...I, too, took offense to the "only two outcomes" scenario. So. Not. True. I was raised in a home with great Christian parents. They played with me on the floor, we sang songs, we hugged and showed affection, we had family Bible studies together, we had an open level of communication, they supported me in every way possible, and guess what else??? They spanked me. Do I need to repeat it again...I had a WONDERFUL upbringing, and am thankful for the God-fearing home I was raised in.

Laura, you do a fantastic job at being a mommy. I think when you base your parenting on Biblical principles, as you talked about, you are without a doubt doing the right thing. Keep up the good work! You are wonderful in every sense of the word!

Niecey said...

What's that thing again about, when you're down, you don't need a finger pointed at you in anger, you need a hand up? That applies to our kids too. Usually their "bad behavior" is a cry for help, and we'd be doing good to notice that and help them out, rather than send them to time out, or swat their butt.

Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. I just find it difficult to do in this subject. Sorry Laura.

Laura said...

Hee hee ... who knew this would spark so much controversy?

First off - I am reading the book "Grace Based Parenting" and I LOVE it. :)

Secondly - EVERY child is different. As a child growing up, I was a VERY headstrong, strong-willed, very defiant child. Any chance to break the rules that I got - I DID. While I feel that my own parents were too strict sometimes - and I do feel that every situation needs to be handled with care and you have to look at all the surrounding circumstances - I was also a VERY difficult child. I was not one that could be deterred from doing wrong by a "voice" or "positive reinforcement". If I didn't know there was a BIGTIME negative consequence coming, I didn't care and wasn't going to do what they said anyway. My little Kyleigh is the same way. I'm pretty sure Maezie WON'T be that way. She'll be totally ALL about positive reinforcement, it's just her personality!

Every situation is different. My parents had more of a black-and-white view of things, and I think I am going to look more at the surrounding circumstances of each infraction. I feel that attitude is a MUCH more important thing to punish than an action. Mistakes are mistakes. Everybody makes them. But WHY you made them is the question to ask. And it's very different if you have a child that feels SORRY for what they've done and wants to be forgiven, than a child who ENJOYED the wrongdoing and will do it again the very next chance they get when they think you have your back turned, and they don't care what you think or if you're upset with them. It's the ATTITUDE, not the ACTION, that needs to be punished. (Except in cases where there is imminent danger, like running out in front of a car or something.)

And with Cooper - it wasn't just that he was scared that his Mom was in the hospital, although I'm sure that was part of it. He just didn't ever get boundaries from his parents. He ran the whole household, at age 5. He yelled and screamed at people to get what he wanted. NO ONE would babysit for him more than once. The Sunday School teachers at church CRINGED at having him in their class. He talked back to them, hit them, hit other members of his classroom, and then when his parents came to pick him up, they'd say "Oh, it's just a phase he's going through" and they didn't even tell him that it wasn't ok to hit other people!! They just let him do whatever he wanted, because they wanted to make him happy. Cooper IS a bully, and his parents don't spank at all, or do time-outs. They only do positive reinforcement, and you can see where that got him. He's a strong-willed child with no boundaries, so he acts out and gets whatever he wants. So I really do believe in my heart that he will be the type of teenager/adult who abuses other people to get what he wants, because he's never been FORCED to learn otherwise.

And I DO want to be gentle with my children. I will spank where it's necessary. I won't spank in anger. But with Kyleigh - sometimes it's the ONLY way to get through to her. For instance - playing with the electrical outlet. She can get those little covers off, and wants to stick things in them. That could really hurt her!! I can't watch her EVERY second of the day. And I can tell her not to do that until I'm blue in the face, but she's going to keep doing it. Then if I tell her, "Kyleigh, if you do that one more time, I'm going to give you a spanking!" Then she'll look RIGHT AT ME, and do it again, just to see if I'll stand by what I've told her. It's only AFTER she gets a spanking for it that she stops doing it. I only use spankings when the alternate route is PAIN or something lethal. Like, don't touch the cleaners under the sink, don't play with electrical outlets, don't run in the street, don't hit/kick/bite people, don't grab things off the stove - etc. Because the consequences of these actions could SERIOUSLY HURT HER. Otherwise, if it's just a respect/tantrum/obedience issue, then I'm totally fine to just use a time out, or positive reinforcement.

And I totally agree - it's so important to model positive behavior, model grace. I so agree!! And it's so true that there are times that the children acting out is MY fault for not meeting their needs. But if in a case where their needs are met, and they are just throwing a tantrum or refusing to do something I've asked them do "You dumped all your toys out, please pick them up now, I'll help you!" and she runs the other way and says "No, I don't want to!" then it becomes an issue of RESPECT. This is where she needs to learn that I love her, but that she needs to be obedient, as the Bible tells us.

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.” And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord." - Eph. 6:1-4

It's important for my children to be obedient. But it's equally as important for me to not provoke them to wrath. :)

In addition - Hebrews chapter 12 says that the Lord disciplines AND punishes those He loves.

When God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then they did - the punishment was swift and severe. It wasn't a "please don't do that again" or a "your needs haven't been met" kind of a thing. It was "You disobeyed. You cannot be with Me in My garden anymore." There wasn't a second chance. It was black and white. Here is the rule, and if you break it, these are the consequences.

I DON'T JUST SIT AND WAIT FOR MY KID TO MESS UP SO I CAN SPANK HER!!! That notion is ridiculous. I spank when NECESSARY, not because I feel that every tiny little thing has to be obeyed to Nth degree. When we fall, we DO need a hand up, not a finger pointed. We are to HELP our children, to play with them, to love them, to nurture them - but also to protect them and when needed, CORRECT them.

And Niecey, perhaps you are lucky enough to not have an incredibly headstrong child like I do. :) Kyleigh simply doesn't respond to positive reinforcement. She doesn't respond to "Please don't do that honey" or "let me help you not do that". I can model positive behavior, and meet her needs, and use positive reinforcement - and if she's in one of her moods, she'll just look at me, keep doing what I'm asking her not to - and be like, "Is that all you got?" The ONLY thing that breaks her out of it is either a spanking or a time out. I don't punish her for every tiny infraction - FAR from it. She doesn't get spankings every day, I'm not a negative parent, and I'm not beating my child.

I know for a fact that none of your children would have come to my house and behaved rudely toward me, or told me point-blank "I don't like your house. And your cooking looks disgusting. I want to go home, I don't like it here." (I've had a kid in my home say that to me, and the parent did nothing.) You would be appalled by their behavior if they did act that way, and would no doubt make them apologize. It's an issue of respect.

Kyleigh and I have plenty of fun together. We play, laugh, tickle, read books, sing, tell stories, play games ... we are involved. She's not a bully and she's not afraid of me. But I do spank her. And after she gets a spanking/time-out, she cries for awhile, and then says "I'm sorry Mommy" and I say that I'm sorry too. And then we hug, and move on from there. She respects me, I respect her, and we've been obedient to God's Word.

Laura said...

Oh, and one other thing. I once had a friend who had a child that didn't get enough boundaries. She was rude, defiant, and flat-out disrespectful. When I asked her not to do something (because it is a rule at my house) she would look at me, roll her eyes, and say "You're not the boss of me, I can do whatever I want."

I couldn't stand to be around her. My friendship with her mom didn't end, but it is TERRIBLE and ANNOYING to be around a child who is allowed to behave so rudely. And her daughter was in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL at the time.

I would only hang out with this person when their daughter couldn't be there, because I simply didn't like being around someone like that.

That kind of attitude will carry over into adulthood. Who wants to be around a snobbish, selfish, rude person?? We, as parents, have to teach our children appropriate ways to behave.

girl said...

wow laura- you really know how to ignite the fires!!! :)

i think as you've said, every child is different. i was the tenderhearted one that would submit to my mom just saying she was "disappointed in my behavior" at a pretty young age. my sister, on the other hand, was defiant to the last!

if you don't teach your children to submit to authority- they will never learn to submit to god. (i think that could be some of the basis behind stoning defiant children under the law of moses. they were STONED!! you can imagine those parents did whatever was necessary to save their children's lives, and make them obedient.)

they have to see that there is a definite outcome for their actions- immediately. when my kids are running for the road i don't want to have to "count to 3" or say "i mean it"... i want them to listen to me immediately- for their own sake, and my sanity! whatever that outcome is going to be, whether time-out, a "talking to" for the older ones, or spanking or whatever... it has to happen... if the kids think you're just making empty threats and "love them too much to punish them" then they're going to go CRAZY! we've got a couple at church with a 2ish and a 4ish. they don't believe in negative punishment at all. they talk to the kids about "making the right choices".. i'm sorry- a 2 year old is quite possibly the most self serving entity on the planet! (no matter how sweet and cute they are!) :)

again, god WILL punish us if we do not accept his grace and truth and authority... and we as parents have to instill that in our children. that we love them, and are kind, but just like the heavenly father, we have set boundaries that they must stay within.

Jana Green said...

Hi Laura,

I totally agree with you and I agree with Niecey in that there are children who can be raised without spanking. But I do think that there are children who need it and that it can be done in a Christian way where you don't even raise your voice.

Spanking, when done correctly, is done in a calm, manner, never with anger, and can even be done "in a loving home, with a lot of parental involvement, talking, playing, teaching, singing, touching, spending time, reading the bible, getting on the flour and relating to their kids, being open and most importantly, MODELING positive behavior."

I have seen parents who seem to be exactly like what Niecey described, (what I quoted) who do spank. Spanking can be done effectively. I think Niecey has a point for those who do not use it effectively, who do it in anger, or too frequently, for too minor infractions.

I agree with what Laura says, though. The first thing I thought at the end was "AMEN!!"

Every parent is different, every child is different, therefore I believe you can't have a blanket rule for everyone. NO SPANKING. ALWAYS SPANK (I know you're not saying this, Laura.)!!

I have noticed already, with Jakob, that we do have to get more stern with him. We haven't had to spank yet, but we are not excluding it from future situations. The girl that I watch that is 4 days older than him, you just have to look at, and her lip comes out. Kids are different. I could go on and on.....but I won't.

I'm going to look up that site, Niecey because I want to do everything I can to direct Jakob without spanking. But I will spank Jakob if I feel it is necessary.

Elizabeth said...

Love your thoughts! I'm blogging on tuesdays about child training, and would love to have as many participants as possible. Check it out at www.busymama7.blogspot.com. Look for Child Training Tuesday!!